Global Wildlife Trafficking: What We Can Do

Assistant Secretary McMurray: I'm really pleased to be here, but I'm not pleased about the topic. I have to talk to you about tonight. First of all I think this group is pretty sophisticated. You know, it is common knowledge that animal species are endangered across the world, and most of the time what people attribute the problem to is loss of habitat, loss of land, and human pressures that come along that cause them to have to jam into a smaller and smaller place.

But what people really don't know as much about, and what we're talking about tonight, is that animal species are threatened by the bounty on their head, in essence. It poses an even greater threat in some cases than the loss of their natural habitat. And the numbers are really quite staggering, and I can't give you every statistic this evening but I'll give you a few. First of all, the overall conservative estimate that we have is that the trade amounts to about $10 billion a year globally. And some people put it closer to $20 billion. Estimates just on the trade in live animals--first of all, probably 25,000-40,000 primates are traded per year. Two to three million birds--live birds--are for sale per year. And then the statistics on the wildlife products are even grimmer--just a couple of examples, in Brazil, a national report said that 4 million wild creatures poached in Brazil are killed every year and at least three specimens are collected for every product that's actually sold and traded. So really the statistics don't capture the loss completely.

In the United States the statistics we have are a little bit old, but for 1985 to 1992 our Fish and Wildlife Service estimates that nearly 2 million items containing wildlife parts were imported solely for medicinal use. That's mostly traditional Chinese medicine and some other things. So if you multiply that out, there are a lot of products coming in that aren't for medicinal use. It's a large statistic. And the reason the numbers are so staggering is that the trade has become very profitable. I'll just give you a couple of examples of how much one of these products will glean--a single Leers Macaw can be worth up to $60,000. A Golden Lion Tamarin is worth about $20,000 and a gram of coral snake venom can be worth about $30,000.

The prices are driving more and more members of organized crime syndicates to engage in this black market, and it's really pushing a number of species to the brink of extinction. And I'll cite one example which is the tiger--very well known. It's got a relentless demand for its skins and its body parts. And I'm sad to say that I'm looking out across the age groups here, maybe not everybody in this room but at least within some of our lifetime, I think we may face extinction of seven species of tiger across the world. And that would mirror what happened in America with the buffalo in the early 20th century. The United States is working with India and China--and a lot of other countries--but India and China in particular on this problem to see if we can turn it around but the picture really isn't very encouraging. The tiger populations are plummeting and at the same time the price for the products and the tigers themselves increases. So we have kind of a vicious cycle going on here.

I want to also relay some very recent information about elephants which also causes concern about this whole process of illegal trade and poaching and this obviously would be for their ivory. The was an article in the New York Times Magazine just a couple of weeks ago, and it talked about "are we driving elephants crazy?" In particular, it talked about Uganda, a country that's really been ravaged by war for lots of years -- the last 20 or so. And as a study some wildlife biologists have looked at elephant behavior in that country and they documented some anecdotes here:

• A man was fatally gored by a young male at a park near a village;
• A young Indian tourist was killed by a male elephant who pinned the tourist down with his knee and then stabbed him with a tusk;
• Elephants trampled huts and villages and then blockaded roads prohibiting humans from passing; and
• Then finally, maybe a little more interesting, is that elephants have started to kill rhinos which [the scientists] have never seen happen before in the wild.

Just to quote from the article: "These were not isolated incidents. All across Africa, India and parts of South East Asia elephants have been striking out, destroying villages and crops, attacking and killing human beings."

A simple explanation of this may be what we talked about in the beginning which is that populations of humans are growing more and more and they're destroying elephant habitat and certainty that is true. But the scientists who are studying this have begun to come to the conclusion that violent elephant behavior goes well beyond traditional human animal conflict and they're now at least in this article quoting as saying that "there's a precipitous collapse in elephant culture" and they're attributing the violence to poaching. They're attributing it also to war and to habitat loss but they name poaching as the primary reason.

And what they say is the cause is that poaching breaks down what is a very deep sense of family among elephants. They have long-term memories and they have deep familial attachments, and so the young ones watch the older ones get killed and they remember. And the scientists studying this have now said that this has caused elephants to exhibit a behavior that's similar to post traumatic stress disorder in humans--human that we see coming back from wars.

So some of you may think that these conclusions are very far fetched, and they certainly are very preliminary, but I think its becoming clear that more and more scientists are looking at this theory as something that's very credible. So we can lay this on the doorstep, I think, of poaching. So, if traffickers heard these stories I don't think they'd be concerned because they obviously are looking for very immediate and very significant profits.

We heard about an illegal trader (who was apprehended in Vietnam) who was exporting king cobras to be used for food and medicine. He summed up the attitude by saying, where had he obtained his snakes? Well, he said, he got them from Laos and Cambodia because in Vietnam there aren't any more left. And when he was asked what he would do when there aren't anymore wild pythons in Cambodia and Laos, he said, "Well we'll find something else to trade."

So it's going to take a major effort to crack down on this crime. And we in the U.S. recognize that it's going to require not only the efforts of governments but of nongovernmental organizations and the private sector. And, given the challenges we face and the fact that they're not limited by national boarders, I think we're going to be increasingly reliant on these partnerships in the future.

One partnership I wanted to tell you about that the U.S. had put together is called the Coalition Against Wildlife Trafficking. It was created and launched about a year ago here in the United States. At that time we were the only government that was willing to take a political stand and say this trade needs to stop. But we had several nongovernmental organizations with us at that time as partners, some that you've heard of--World Wildlife Fund, Conservation International, Wildlife Conservation Society, also Wild Aid, that's actually based right here in San Francisco and focuses on the wildlife trade.

And our two objectives are to get at the supply and to get at the demand--really simple. I wish it were as simple as it sounded, but we're initially focused on [the] Asia part because the biggest market is in China and all the countries around China feed into it. Unfortunately though, we do have a problem here in America as well. So I think on the demand side, one of the reasons we're here is to create the public awareness here in the United States.

I think that while there's a lot of organized crime, that there also is some kind of innocent crime that's going on--some tourists who travel and don't know that they're actually doing something illegal.

I want to talk a little bit more about the health threat. You've heard about SARS [severe acute respiratory syndrome]; you've heard about avian influenza; you may have heard about the Ebola virus. They spread among humans quite quickly, and they're also quite deadly. But we see from the illegal trade that there's already some potential for moving the avian influenza virus.

In October 2004, a Thai man was caught attempting to smuggle a couple of mountain hawk eagles that were infected with the H5N1 virus, the actual most serious strain so far of the avian influenza virus. He had them in his carry-on bags in Brussels. They were seized and euthanized. And then last summer in London, two parrots were seized at Heathrow airport that were infected with the avian influenza virus. So this is not something we're making up. It's potentially a threat that we need to pay attention to.

So let me go back to the coalition just for a minute and tell you a little bit about what we've done on the year that we've been together working. We've helped create an enforcement network in the Association of South East Asian Nations -- the ASEAN countries that has helped them bring together their customs, their police, and their wildlife officials together in a cooperative way because believe it or not these countries officials in these areas don't really talk to each other -- or they hadn't been. And now they are. They're learning each others names and phone numbers and how to communicate information that they hear about potential criminal activity and it's already proven to be quite helpful.

We've had several law enforcement victories I think just in the short time this has been together for instance; the first cooperative efforts that the network put together were between the governments of Thailand, and Indonesia, and Malaysia. They worked together to return 54 orangutans that were illegally smuggled into Thailand from Indonesia. We haven't got those orangutans back to where they belong yet. The coup in Thailand has prevented their movement but we're hopeful that they will be restored to the wild soon.

Thailand is one of the key countries -- I talked about all of the countries that feed into the markets in China -- but it really has shown that it's interested in trying to crack down on the activity that's coming through. Recently the authorities there seized 200 crocodiles that were being transported by truck from the Thai --Cambodian boarder to a crocodile farm and the driver and we hope several others in the chain will face a sentence of up to 10 years and a fine of up to about 4 times the value of the trafficked items. Not the heftiest fine yet but we're making progress in at least apprehending these criminals.

And then this summer, the Thai police discovered a syndicate who were trading in the Shahtoosh shawls and they trade for anywhere from $1,200 to $12,000. So we were able to--through the work of this regional enforcement network--to seize 250 shawls and to really break up the syndicate that had been quite organized in Thailand.

And then we talked about tigers a little bit. We were pleased recently that the Thai police again confiscated two separate shipments of smuggled tigers. They discovered six tiger carcasses at the Bangkok airport but they were able to rescue three live tigers and then two leopards and a large collection of rare birds that have now been relocated to a parks center for wildlife. So these are small successes really, but it's more that had been happening before this regional enforcement network had been created.

But we have a whole lot more work to do, and our coalition really hopes to convince people that these products don't need to be brought home--that coral necklaces, that shark fin soup, that Shahtoosh Shawls are really something that we can live without. And so that's the real reason that we wanted to talk to you tonight--to raise the awareness here and hopefully to convince you that Americans really need to lead the world in stopping buying these products.

So, I asked Bo Derek to come here tonight to make sure that I got your attention, because I'm not an idiot. [Laughter.] I know that, all by myself, I can only do so much. It was mentioned in the introduction this morning that she was appointed  last April by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice as her special envoy on world wildlife trafficking issues. You've heard a little bit, but I want to say a little more about the work that she's done to protect animals.

She served on a number of boards including the Galapagos Conservancy and WildAid, the group I mentioned that's based here in San Francisco and is trying to stop the illegal wildlife trade. She's taken up the cause of stopping the slaughter of horses in the U.S. for food export, and she's testified before Congress with the National Horse Protection Coalition. Given her interest and the public sense of service that she has displayed so strongly over the years, we thought she was a natural choice to help us with this issue of wildlife trafficking. So at this point I'd like to give her an opportunity to talk about her perspective on this issue.

Special Envoy Bo Derek: Thank you for having me. This is actually my very first appearance as special envoy on wildlife trafficking. Obviously, Claudia has explained the issue so I don't want to repeat everything she said again except from my point of view and how I got involved.

I had--still have--no intention of public service or advocacy; I don't believe I have any place in it. I think it's for other people who are more passionate, more driven, more articulate. I don't believe celebrities have any place doing this, but honestly you never know who you'll sit next to at a dinner table or somewhere and they'll just start talking to you and spark something and make you want to get involved. So here I am. Some years ago, I was honestly standing in line at a breakfast buffet and found out about these events that our Department of Veterans Affairs has for disabled veterans. Well, I've been honorary co-chair of those events which include wheelchair games--winter games--they're the largest of their kind in the world that we do for our veterans.

I fancy myself quite an expert in the horse world. I was arguing with someone that we don't slaughter horses here for human consumption. We don't even feed horse meat to dogs here anymore. That's impossible. When I found out that it was happening, I jumped right in to the fight--thinking it would be very quick--because who's ever going to stand up in this country and say, "I'm pro-slaughter of the horse?" Or for foreigners to eat our horse meat on dinner plates over in Europe and Asia? That battle has been going on for 3 years. It's been an incredible civics lesson for me. I learned more about our government--the way it works and doesn't work-than I ever wanted to know. But we had a success in the House this year--and if the Senate does the same and has the same kind of vote next month--then honestly I'd like to check that one off the list, because now I find myself involved in the [fight against] wildlife trafficking.

Six years ago was my first trip to the Galapagos Islands. I ignorantly assumed that because this was a marine reserve--at that time only one of only two in the world--that everything was protected and it was pristine where the Darwin station is and everything was lovely. I found out about the poaching going on there. This park is 50,000 sq. miles. Ecuador owns the Galapagos; it's not a wealthy country. I found out about what was going on there with the shark fining and realized that Ecuador can't take care of this park--it requires the world--we must all get involved; we must all help. As far as law enforcement, as far as training, we just sent down some money to keep the patrol boat going. We all have to protect this place.

You find out when I got involved in the shark fin trade--and to me it's so unnecessary--that we're about to lose one of our oldest species because their fins floating in a bowl of soup is a status symbol. It shouldn't be too difficult to convince people that this is unnecessary. It's not even believed to be medicinal or even an aphrodisiac, simply status. We should be able to come up with something else that is sustainable to impress people. And that's when I got involved in the idea of public awareness and education.

I think that's where I'm very proud as an American, proud of our country, our government, and of the global community, that we're making this a priority and that we're committing to this with the Coalition Against Wildlife Trafficking. To me, it does require governments to come together and commit to law enforcement and education. But then, the idea of bringing in all the nongovernment organizations also is where they can all come together, complement each other.

I'm also on the board of WildAid, which I think has a tremendous program of public service announcements in Asia right now with--we have Jackie Chan, Yao Ming--just about every Asian Olympic athlete committed and signed on and doing public service announcements for us, and these are reaching between Asia and India, sometimes a billion people a week. I believe that this will make a difference.

Unlike drugs or arms--wildlife trafficking is just behind all those in organized crime--and I think that, unlike [arms]--you can win territory with arms, you can get a high with drugs; you become addicted to them--there's really no need for these products [from wildlife] in our world today. Any medicinal properties they might have can be better accomplished through other ingredients--more effective, cheaper. So there's no reason.

So, somehow, we have to be able to reduce demand. It's the only way. Right now these animals do have a high a price on their head. I'm very excited about the idea. I think it does require the world to solve this problem. We can all start. I was guilty; I've been given some Shahtoosh Shawls in the past. I was ignorant. I had no idea. I have coral jewelry; I had no idea that coral is protected, and that it's a problem. So I think that, even here at home we are the second in consuming endangered species.

We have to educate ourselves. We all have to stop buying things if we suspect that maybe its not the right thing to do; just don't buy it. Convince everyone else; everyone you know.

I'm not without hope. But we don't have a lot of time on this issue. So I hope that you'll all join. That's the great thing about this coalition: we can all do our part.

Question and Answer

Question: You talked about NGOs as part of the coalition. What about governments - particularly [in] Europe because I imagine part of the main problem is there. And also how responsive is China to pressure particularly with the Olympics coming up?

Assistant Secretary McMurray: All good questions and - because I think I went on a little bit too long about the elephants I skipped over the fact that we have some new country partners - which I shouldn't have done. Australia has joined us and in the next month we will have Canada and South Africa, Germany and I'm leaving one out… Brazil ! We need them to get through their elections and then we'll have Brazil. So those are all key countries from both a developed and developing perspective but also from a kind of perspective of the countries that have the resources versus the one who are on the receiving end. It's very key to have all of those on board.

The NGOs have been also though very important to our effort partly because I think they're able to get in on the ground in places that maybe we can't. I'll give you an example. I was in China in the summer and it was interesting to see some of the markets because I had understood that, even though there'd been a pretty significant crackdown, there still was a lot going on. I was taken somewhere quite early in the morning and by the time we got there it was all shut down. I don't know where everything went but it was somewhere else and there were officials there who made sure there wasn't anything for me to see. So, that was of some concern.

But we have pursued a very extensive dialogue with China ; we have asked them to be a partner in this coalition. They have not said yes yet, they've expressed an interest because I think they recognize this as a problem that they want to try and solve.

The Olympics I think are playing a very key role. The Chinese realize that the spotlight of the world will be on them in 2008. They have a number of issues that they need to deal with. One of them is the air pollution in Beijing and whether the athletes will be able to breathe. But, beyond that, they also -- I think -- look at this as something they would rather not have as an issue at that time.

I'd like to say that this is not a case -- and its hard to make this point strongly enough -- where the US is just coming in and saying "this is something you need to stop because we don't think you need to do it." Even though it may sound that way from the way we're talking.

My discussions with them have always been "you have a problem, we have a problem, let's work on it together." We both have really big markets for these products -- in different ways -- but we still are both big consumers. So, let's work together and hopefully that message will get through in the end.

Question: Hi, I have a couple questions -- I had a question about the law enforcement approach. Specifically what I'm most interested in is: I read an article by a couple of Reuters' journalists who spent some time in the markets. What is common practice is that a lot of these traders know that what their trading is endangered. As a result -- with your visit -- everything is traded underground already. My question is: how effective can a law enforcement approach be in developing countries? A second question is: how will your coalition work to provide people with [other] livelihood opportunities? Many of the people who are collecting these goods do so because it is their best rational economic opportunity - because it's easily available. And the third question I had is about … [laughter] My third question was about the medicinal qualities and the folk wisdom that is associated with so many of these products throughout south east Asia. What work is your coalition doing to combat this -- in the sense of: are some of these goods -- is bear bile -- does it have medicinal qualities? I very much support Jackie Chan and I very much support all of the celebrities who have stepped forward and spoken out on this issue. My only concern is that it's reaching a certain sector of people in these countries and they're the folks who have televisions, they're the people who are literate and they are not necessarily the consumers of these goods.

Assistant Secretary McMurray: Ok. Wow. Those are all really fantastic questions and I'll see if I can answer as many of them as I can.

As far as enforcement is concerned, I think the big thing I should stress to you -- and it may not have [come] through in my remarks -- is that we have to do both enforcement and cutting back on the demand at the same time. The enforcement itself is not going to be adequate for just the very reasons you pointed out. The [increased law enforcement] pressure [only] drives some of the trade underground or into black markets. But, having said that, I would say: if we are relentless, if we keep after these people, I think eventually the pressure will get to them. Now maybe that means they change back to something else like drugs. I don't know. I don't know well enough all the different areas of opportunities for them. But, I think, if the enforcement side -- the penalties and the actual bringing [of] these people through the court system and prosecuting them -- if that actually happens, I think some of the members of the trade will start to think twice about the consequences of their actions.

But we do have to get at the part that creates this whole market in the first place. So, that's number one. As far as livelihoods -- that's probably the biggest challenge we have. I think of just wildlife conservation generally -- because you can talk about all of us sitting here we don't have, except for pets I guess, we don't have tigers here, we don't have lions here, we don't have elephants -- but we care about the fact that they're in the world somewhere and that we might have the opportunity to see one someday. Or even if we don't have the opportunity to see one, just the fact that they're there seems to be something that's important.

That doesn't mean anything to the member of a tribe who has to eat everyday and needs to have some source of income. So some of the work we've done in Africa -- but I think in this particular -- on this topic -- I would mention India as being a little more apropos. We've worked very hard with the government there to try and create some areas of eco-tourism for them. Because, if you have tourists that want to come see the tigers, there is an economic value there. There are jobs there for the people who live around that area. If they continue to participate in the poaching then obviously that goes away but it has to happen fast. Eco-tourism isn't something that's really been common in India until the last few years and at the rate that tiger populations are declining, we're going to have to get a lot of tourism there fast to kind of hold the line. So that's one example.

On your question about the medicinal value, this one is really tough. I have a couple of different responses to your question. Again I want to stress the fact that -- especially when you are talking about health care -- I think it is very difficult for an American to say to a Chinese person "You know you ought to use something else to cure your arthritis or you ought to use something else for potency, there are alternatives." But, there ARE alternatives. We sat this morning with some representatives from the traditional Chinese medicine community here who communicate with their counterparts in China who say this isn't necessary. As a public position they now say that there are plenty of alternatives. They are natural. It is not that they're chemical. They're coming from herbs and other items that produce the same positive effect.

So, we try to catch it in that way but -- I think -- also for some of the items where there maybe isn't an alternative yet -- we're trying to pursue with the Chinese government some scientific research that would actually push technology or medicine -- let's say -- in that direction so that these products really wouldn't be necessary.

Assistant Secretary McMurray: Do you want to add to any of that?

Special Envoy Bo Derek: I would just add that it is - people will have to find an alternative: by choice in order to save these animals; or because there won't be any. Either way it's inevitable. These animals -- the numbers are declining so quickly -- they won't be around so they will have to give them up.

Question: I'm not sure how to phrase this as a question. It seems like; if our country had a consistent philosophy towards all animals then it would be easier to address international trafficking. There seems like there [are] so many inconsistencies in our own legal system with regard to animals. We have zoos. We used to rationalize those for educational purposes and now we know we don't need that. We have videos of animals and yet we still have zoos for recreational purposes. So there [are] so many inconsistencies within our own culture. It seems like we have an enormous opportunity here in this country to be a real leader in terms of establishing a philosophy towards animals in general. Is there a cohesive philosophy that the country could have? Because don't you really need that in order to be consistent and effective?

Assistant Secretary McMurray: Well that's an interesting question. {Bo,} you're welcome to chime in on this one. It would be hard for me to pick one place in your federal government that talks about all these issues in one place because we don't. You know, I focus on the international part of this. We have the Fish and Wildlife Service who talks about the domestic side of the endangered species we have within our own boarders. But you're raising a whole lot of other issues -- I'm assuming -- that relate to not only zoos -- but perhaps the use of animals in laboratory experiments and other things. I don't think there's any one place where all those issues come together. Shouldn't there be? I don't know that I have an opinion on that.

What I can say is that I participate in the meetings of the convention on trade and endangered species. I'm not exaggerating when I say that the United States is viewed as the world leader on this topic. When someone is trying to figure out a way to save a population of an endangered species in their own country, they come to us to try to figure out the science of it and the politics of how to get it done. That's quite a lot I think.

Maybe that's a good start anyway. I also think that there are a lot of different parts of this country and a lot of different ways people like to think about animals and their own land. I don't know that they would -- that everyone would -- welcome having us think about every other issue that you've mentioned. I don't know. But I do hope that you take some solace in the fact that we're very well regarded in the international community.

I should also mention whales -- the International Whaling Commission. We are the country that takes Japan to task every year on their research -- so called research -- whaling. And it's becoming more difficult every year but we still do it. So there's some hope there, I think.

Question: I have a question. What can the common person do to help in this? Are there websites they can go to [from which] to gather information? What sort of word can they spread? What can any of our audience, wishing to participate, do?

Assistant Secretary McMurray: Well there are a number of seemingly small things I think. Again, the biggest reason why we wanted to come to you tonight -- and to some other groups that we're talking to over this week -- is to encourage you when you go on a trip not to buy these things. Now the fact that you're here says to me that you probably don't already. But I don't know. Hopefully we're over that hurdle with this group.

What I would say is: let's go to the next hurdle which is talk to your friends. I bet you have some friends who don't know about this issue. So those are "at your neighborhood level" type things. There are groups that do this work and we have mentioned a few of them -- Wild Aid and World Wildlife Fund and Conservation International and others who love to have contributions, who love to have volunteers. I mean, there's that kind of work to be done. As far as websites -- we are actually -- our coalition is creating our own website but it is still under construction so I don't have a web address to give you.

Question: You mentioned how demand is a large part of -- a key component of --this industry. But, what's done in developed countries -- particularly the United States and Europe -- to actually punish or criminalize people trying to actually import these illegal products or even live animals?

Assistant Secretary McMurray: Our enforcement system -- our penalties are probably some of the strictest in the world, although I'm told that the Chinese will impose the death penalty for certain actions regarding illegal trade. We don't do that. I can tell you that right now. Do we think the punishments are too light? I got asked this question earlier today: whether it was a matter of changing the law or something else. My first reaction was: there are a number of strong laws on the books around the world. There is this convention that I keep mentioning - CITES [Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora is its full title] - that kind of gives us the international umbrella that we work under and it sets out three appendices and it says you know, you protect this much for number one and less for number two, and even less for number three. So we all work under that. We're supposed to all abide by that and enforce it. And I think the real weak link is the enforcement. It's up to each country to enforce what's already out there. Now, can there be stiffer penalties, longer jail terms? Yeah, probably. Because if you look at some of the profits that are made -- you know, I mentioned a few of the products and how much money they garner -- you can compare that to the penalty and you understand why these people are doing it. So, yes there's probably more that can be done but I'd say even with what we have on the books, we have more to do to just put some force behind that.

Question: First I just want to thank you so much for coming tonight and sharing this information with us. At least in my way of reading and so forth, I get scattered bits but I didn't realize the over all scope of this. I had about four questions, three of them you already answered but I'm wondering about education itself. If there's any effort within our school system for instance to start at an early age so that children will learn about this. And the second question is on the level of the United Nations, is there any part of that -- or agency -- that's assisting in any way.

Assistant Secretary McMurray: Good questions. Good. Education: actually we have a pretty good story to tell there. I don't do this because its domestic but I know what we do in the US. The Fish and Wildlife Service has kind of a teaching a kit that they send around to elementary schools - primarily, although I think sometimes middle schools as well -- that talks about endangered species on a very simple level to kind of get the kids to understand what one is.

We have a facility in Denver where all of these products that come into this country are warehoused. Now eventually if they get to be ten years old they get phased out but we have a huge facility of seized products - of things that have come in through our ports and our borders. What the fish and wildlife service does after these things have been used -- in prosecutions if they have been -- is they put together packages of these different products and send them around to schools and show them examples of what is illegal and what is legal. And it apparently is making quite an impact on the kids so it's really a good program.

And then you asked about the UN. Really, the convention that I mentioned is under the auspices of the United Nations so I think of all the treaties that I deal with which are on the environment, science and space, there are more countries that adhere -- that are parties to and adhere -- to the CITES convention than probably any other treaty there is.

We have time for one more question.

I just have a couple of comment and then a question as well. The first is -- I wanted to put in a plug for another non governmental organization called Animals Asia Foundation. They're actually based out of Hong Kong with a sanctuary in China. They are working to save the endangered Asiatic Black Bear which is also known as the Moon Bear. For those of you who are local, we do have volunteer activities scheduled here in the bay area so I have some brochures and if you're interested in getting involved, come and see me afterwards.

I also wanted to just make a comment about the issue of livelihoods for the people who are engaged in this trade. I want to comment on the topic of micro credit which is I think is a wonderful tool that can be used in helping people to create wealth for themselves in very respectable ways. And I actually just a couple of weekends ago visited a trade fair I guess where an organization called The International Snow Leopard Trust was starting a micro credit program in Mongolia and Nepal to encourage people to create hand crafts rather than focusing on the traditional herding which was conflicting with the snow leopards. So I think it's a really wonderful vehicle to consider.

And then lastly with regards to the bears again -- what we realized is that because the bear populations are being decimated in Asia, we're now seeing evidence of poachers coming here to the United States and Canada -- to North America where they are starting to poach our very healthy brown and black bear populations and so I wanted ask if the coalition was aware of that and what is being done to provide additional enforcement against these poachers here in our own back yard. Thank you.

Assistant Secretary McMurray: Ok. Thanks. First of all I'm glad there are some other outlets for some interest here in the bay area. I think that's great.

On micro credit, I think those of you who have been reading the paper this week will see that the Nobel peace prize has now finally recognized what is an incredible opportunity, an incredibly creative way of giving aid to the extremely poor around the world and producing much better results -- I might say -- than some of the billions of dollars in foreign aid that our country and others have sent around the world over the last 20 years. So it's quite an accomplishment.

I feel quite constrained -- despite the last comment I got about zoos -- to mention a small success that I think we have had on snow leopards which has a bit to do with what you were talking about. We had a case of -- this is your diplomacy at work I want you to know. We had a case in Pakistan where we heard about a snow leopard -- a cub who had been orphaned because a shepherd had shot the mother. It was one of those situations where they thought the mother was threatening the herd. Whether or not it was, is the subject of some question. But anyway, this cub became very well known in Pakistan. The president - President Musharraf actually went to visit this cub up in the northern mountains of his country and eventually we had a diplomatic exchange that resulted in bringing this snow leopard to America.

That may not be a great result for those of you who are listening but there was no way that this cub was ever going to be maintained in the wild. Its mother had been killed to early in its life to know how to survive. And there was no facility in Pakistan to take care of it and so our Bronx zoo which is a renowned expert in snow leopard conservation brought this cub over on British airways, right before they shut down Heathrow airport for the terrorist activity this summer. He is now at the Bronx zoo until a facility can be built in Pakistan.

So, now that I've said that, I've forgotten what your last question is (It's the question about the poaching that's now happening here in the US). Yes, the bears! The bears. I've been aware of it -- maybe not to the extent that you have mentioned it as a possibility. It's not something our coalition is working on because our focus is international. However, this is an international phenomenon that's kind of having a domestic impact, if I can put it that way (the gallbladders are actually being exported back to Asia). It's something I think we ought to take a look at. I need to talk to our fish and wildlife service to see what they're doing but I hope they are enforcing….Alright.