America and Turkey: The Uncertain Partnership

[Following is a discussion connecting Americans and Turks, co-hosted by CNN Türk’s Mithat Bereket, Live from Istanbul, and America Abroad Media’s Judy Woodruff, Live from Washington, DC.]

Mithat Bereket: Hello from Istanbul; I'm Mithat Bereket from CNN Turk and I do welcome you to the special program where we're going to be examining the relations between Turkey and the United States of America.

Judy Woodruff: And hello from Washington. I'm Judy Woodruff welcoming you on behalf of America Abroad Media to this unique international Town Hall program connecting America and Turkey--Mithat?

Mithat Bereket: Thanks Judy; on this program we will discuss the recent status of the relations between Turkey and the United States of America and the key issues challenging the relations today and of course the future of the relations. And we will do it through this satellite which brings two sides together live. With me on this side in the Turkish Capital in Ankara studios we have two senior Turkish Diplomats, Ambassador Ertušrul Apakan, Deputy of the Secretary of Foreign Ministry for Turkish-American Bilateral Relations; and also in Ankara we have Faruk Lošošlu, currently a member of the Advisory Council of the Foreign Ministry of Turkey and former Turkish Ambassador to Washington. Judy?

Judy Woodruff: Thanks Mithat; we also have a live studio audience here in Washington that will participate in this discussion and joining me at the table here in the US Capital are Dan Fried; he is Assistant Secretary for European Affairs at the US State Department and the former US Ambassador to Poland and Marc Grossman, who was Undersecretary for Political Affairs at the State Department and an Ambassador to Turkey in the mid-1990s. Let's begin with you gentlemen--to you Dan Fried, first; a quick question about America's relationship with Turkey. Clearly there was a very difficult moment in 2003 as the US was thinking about the War in what would become the War in Iraq. Where are US/Turkey relations right now?

Ambassador Dan Fried: Well we certainly did have a rough patch but we're through that and relations are pointed in the right direction. I've felt that for some time but especially since Secretary Rice's visit to Ankara just a couple of weeks ago. We are pointed in the right direction because our interests and our values overlap; we are moving ahead with Turkey in an alliance that brings us together on a number of issues.

Judy Woodruff: And Marc Grossman, there have been some who have said the US hasn't always paid as much attention to Turkey as it should have. Is that part of a problem that exists today?

Ambassador Marc Grossman: I think actually Judy, it's part of the challenge on both sides. Now this is a relationship as Dan said that's a historic one; it's a powerful one, but it's a relationship that both countries have to pay attention to every day and for me the headline is I think that we could do a lot more together on the Washington side and on the Ankara side, and I congratulate the Administration for raising the profile of Turkey and raising it on the agenda but I think there's more we can do and I hope we'll get into some of those things during the program.

Judy Woodruff: All right, Mithat?

Mithat Bereket: Yeah; I'll go back to--Judy, to Ankara to our guests here and I'd like to start with Ambassador Ertušrul Apakan. Mr. Ambassador, how do you consider or define the recent status of the Turkish/American relations? Is there some sort of an obstacle, of a bruise--or what happened? I mean how do you define the recent situation at the moment in their relations?

Ambassador Ertušrul Apakan: Well first of all I wish to extend my greetings to my US colleagues and the panelists in Washington. I think in terms of Turkish/American relations we are moving in the right direction. We share common values such as democracy, respect for human rights, and rule of law. We wish to see these values are promoted. We are strategic partners; this will contribute to peace, security, and stability in our neighborhood and beyond. And our relationship has matured over five decades of friendship and alliance. And the visit of Secretary Rice has compounded our mutual trust and confidence we have in each other. And finally, I have to emphasize that our relations are growing in terms of economy, cultural activities, people to people contacts, universities to universities.

Mithat Bereket: Thank you very much Mr. Ambassador. And coming back to Ambassador Lošošlu; do you have been in Washington representing Turkey. When you compared the last four or five years, how do you define the ups and downs in Turkish relations with the US? I mean what are the sticking points do you think and where are we now at the moment with those problems?

Ambassador Faruk Lošošlu: I think the first thing you have to remember is that this is an important relationship for both of our countries. It's a mutually beneficial relationship and it's a tested relationship. And because our agenda is so complex and so full of important items, it is probably unavoidable from time to time to experience difficulties but what we have done is to successfully navigate that through these problems--at the moment I think the challenge is the pace whether in Iraq or in Iran in our region generally--will again prove to be a testing ground for the durability and the strength of our relationship. I think we should not be deceived by the difficulties we face. We should look at the larger picture and whether or not this may remain connected toward achieving mutually agreed objectives. We have been able to do this in the past and I think we are going to be able to do it in the--in the future as well.

Mithat Bereket: Thank you very much Mr. Lošošlu. As you see, Judy, these are the Turkish opinions at the moment to wrap up the general relations between Turkey and the US. Now we have a report--a package that we want to show coming from Washington from--Steve Roberts for America Abroad Media. He in a way put together how the US--the Washington and the public opinion of the United States of America sees or perceives Turkey. Let's watch it first and then we'll continue with our special program.

[Begin Video Clip]

Steve Roberts: More than three years have passed since the Iraq War triggered a bitter dispute between the United States and Turkey. US officials now emphasize the positive describing the relationship as being in a strong upswing.

Mathew Bryza: Since last June when Prime Minister Erdošan visited and met with the President in the Oval Office, we have worked systematically to develop and re-establish a sense of partnership in US/Turkish relations and I feel pretty strong momentum right now.

Steve Roberts: But outside the Government there is real disagreement among analysts and Washington about the state of the relationship.

Michael Rubin: Washington is more concerned about the future of Turkey than meets the eye. On one hand, diplomats will say everything is fine; many former diplomats, many of whom have consultancies in Turkey or do business in Turkey will say everything is fine, but in their hearts of hearts people are worried.

Mark Parris: US/Turkish relations are still trying to find their footing after two or three years where the two sides have had difficulty communicating with one another.

Steve Roberts: But today it is not clear whether Turkey and the United States agree on how to address new security challenges in the region. Turkey's Government has adopted a policy that has been referred to as strategic depth which in practice has meant close relations with Syria, Iran, and the Palestinians.

Mathew Bryza: Tactically perhaps there could be periodically what appear to be slight divergences but in a strategic sense we feel quite good that we're moving together in the same direction.

Mark Parris: Well Turkey's foreign policy has always been good neighborly but--but this sense that the Muslim--Turkey's Muslim identity is added value in dealing with other Muslim countries in the region I think is a new dimension that we haven't seen before.

Steve Roberts: From Washington's perspective developments inside Turkey have also created new challenges for US/Turkish relations. For many in the United States the anti-American sentiment reflected in Turkey's smash hit movie Valley of the Wolves was deeply disturbing.

Michael Rubin: The fact that the Prime Minister saw it two weeks before its showing, saw its rabid anti-Americanism, frankly its rabid anti-Semitism which goes against the grain of Turkish tolerance and then sent his wife and the Speaker of the Parliament to see the movie and endorse it is shameful.

Mathew Bryza: The fact that some people decided to embrace it as a triumph that reflects truth or reality, that worries us because that film deeply--I mean based on my--my--the reviews I read of it that film deeply distorts the reality of US/Turkish relations, so that worries us.

Steve Roberts: Rightly or wrongly the debate inside Turkey over the role of Islam and Turkish society and public life is causing concern in the United States. More than a few observers in Washington are beginning to question the AKP Government's commitment to secular democracy.

Michael Rubin: The United States will respect the democratic choice of all Turks, but without a doubt it does affect the relationship and without a doubt the relationship is strained between the White House and the AKP.

Mark Parris: We have a stake in the outcome and you know if you look at what the Administration Officials have said over the years, the word secular appears in almost every statement and that suggests that as I suggested that it is an important factor for us both with respect to Turkey and the broader region.

Steve Roberts: On the surface at least, the Bush Administration does not seem concerned by the strength of Turkish secularism. Instead it sees Turkey's debates as a reflection of a mature democracy.

Mathew Bryza: Much of Turkey is conservative, much of Turkey looks toward the West and--and rapid modernization, so that tension is inevitable in Turkish society. So I'm not saying that Turkey is reaching some sort of a boiling point or a crisis point. I know some people want to make that argument. I don't see Turkey reaching a crisis point; I just see very vibrant politics.

Steve Roberts: But there is no denying that there is disagreement in Washington and in the mainstream American media about whether Turkey remains fully committed to its Western orientation.

Mark Parris: I know that people try to make the case that this is something fundamentally different we haven't seen before and Turkey is veering off in some adventuristic direction. I simply don't think the facts justify such a dramatic and alarmist vision.

Michael Rubin: The Bush Administration is worried and it goes deeper than the Bush Administration. People in Congress are worried; people within the State Department, the permanent bureaucracy that will be here after Bush leaves whether it's Republicans or Democrats in the White House are worried. The dialogue with regard to Turkey has shifted.

Steve Roberts: So what does all of this mean for the Turkish/American relationship today? At a minimum there's agreement that the relationship will take a lot of work in order to succeed.

Mark Parris: Things are going to happen by virtue of where Turkey sits and by virtue of what the United States is doing in that part of the world, where unless you are communicating and unless you're working together, you're going to stub your toe occasionally.

Steve Roberts: I'm Steve Roberts for America Abroad Media.

[End Video Clip]

Judy Woodruff: Thank you Steve and we want to bring the discussion now back to our distinguished guests in Ankara. Ambassador Lošošlu, you were the Ambassador to the United States. We heard in that report increasing worries about the relationship between the United States and Turkey and we heard a comment--questions about whether Turkey is committed to a Western alignment. How do you respond?

Ambassador Faruk Lošošlu: I think the strengths of Turkish democracy and Turkish way of life including the very fundamental principle of secularism lies in the broad commitment of the Turkish people of various Turkish institutions and organizations in Turkey to Turkish democracy and to Turkish secularism. Throughout modern Turkish history there have been big and small challenges to these foundations of our Republic, but we have been able to meet these challenges head on and I think in the current context the debate of whether Turkey is going to stay with its secular democracy or move in some other direction arises from the broader question of the clash of civilizations, the rise of terrorism, the rise of fundamentalism on both sides--not just in the Islamic world but also in the Western world. But speaking for Turkey, I for one believe that Turkish democracy and Turkey secularism are strong enough to withstand the challenges that might come its way. And these challenges are not lacking. Turkey is a predominantly Muslim country; that's not where the problem lies. The problem lies in those extremist circles and groups which in my judgment still are marginal but they constantly keep picking at the established order of Turkish democracy and Turkish secularism. But we are strong enough; we are committed to our Western European orientation; this is why we pursue diligently and with persistence our goal of joining the European Union as a full member. This is why we remain a strong partner of the United States in the fight against terrorism and various regional issues and what not.

Judy Woodruff: Ambassador Apakan to you; do you believe the concerns that we saw reflected in that Steve Roberts report are exaggerated or do they reflect the real relationship right now?

Ambassador Ertušrul Apakan: Turkey is a democratic and secular country. Our commitment to our relations with the West is strong as ever. We value and care for our relationship. And our partnership with the West rests on two pillars and in that context I fully share what has been said by Ambassador Lošošlu. I think the main pillar--one of the two pillars is Turkish/American dimension and second one is our relations with Europe and the European Union. And they are complimenting each other; they are reinforcing each other and also they are not substituting each other and I should also add that we see NATO as a core institution for transatlantic security. These are the main ideas which I would like to convey to our American friends.

Mithat Bereket: And to your guests back in Washington about this package and I'd like to first start if you can hear me Ambassador Marc Grossman. You've been in Turkey for a long time and you know Turkey and Turkish society very well. Now do you think that Turkey's Muslim identity is being involved more and more in its foreign policy output or behavior? Do you really believe that Ankara is emphasizing Islam--or Islamic ties more than ever, and do you think this is a concern in the United States?

Ambassador Marc Grossman: Well first of all thank you very much and I also on behalf of Dan want to pay our greetings to our Turkish guests there in Ankara. We thank them very much for being with us. My point is a simple one which is to say that I believe that Turkey is going to be Turkey, and Turkey is a democratic country, Turkey is an increasingly economically successful country but Turkey is also a Muslim country and that's also something that we have to take into account. And so this isn't going to be Switzerland; it's not going to be the United States; it's not going to be Luxemburg; Turkey is going to be Turkey, and I think Turkey always will have a very important part of its domestic policy and its foreign policy which will pay attention to the fact that it is a majority Muslim state. That shouldn't surprise us. The question for me is how will that go forward to be tolerant and pluralistic and it seems to me that if Turks can achieve their goal of being a tolerant society and a pluralistic society then I think as Ambassador Lošošlu and Ambassador Apakan said you have a chance there to prove the question of clash of civilization is wrong and if we can do that and Turks can do that it's a huge contribution to civilization.

Mithat Bereket: Thank you very much. Now I also asked--want to ask a question to Dan Fried. In the report as we watched, we also saw some concerns about the movie in Turkey. It was a hit in Turkey--The Valley of the Wolves. Now why do you think the US is so concerned about this movie in Turkey? I mean it's a movie; I mean it's not a sociological report or research or a survey or a poll. I mean it's just a movie like other Hollywood movies, like other Hollywood Rambo movies. So why do you think it's such a big concern in the United States at the moment?

Ambassador Dan Fried: Well I think there was some concern--there is always a concern when a movie or a book appeals to anti-Americanism, but I think that--that is not the major issue and doesn't dominate our relations with Turkey now. I want to associate myself with what Marc Grossman said. What was missing in the film we just saw was a discussion of the enormous potential for good of Turkey's development as a secular democratic country with a mostly Muslim population. What Marc Grossman said is right; Turkey's success economically, politically, its deepening democracy is a demonstration that the clash of civilizations theory is dead wrong. It refutes the a-historic notion that societies--mostly Muslim societies cannot generate democratic political systems. I think that's false; I think it's harmful and basically bigoted and I think Turkey could be the leading example of a country which proves--proves the opposite. That would be a tremendous benefit for the 21st century and it would be a great Turkish contribution as Marc Grossman says to civilization. As for what my old friend Faruk said, I completely agree; we have confidence in the Turkish government. It's only natural that Turkey would want to have good relations with its neighbors and it's in a rough neighborhood. Turkey didn't choose its neighbors; it's just got them, so we understand why Turkey wants good relations with its neighbors. It should be remembered that our partnership is rooted in some profoundly important issues and Turkey's depending democracy is one of them.

Judy Woodruff: Secretary Fried, thank you very much. We're going to take a question from an audience member here in Washington. Sir, could you give us your name and tell us whom the question is directed?

Audience Member 1: Hello; my name is Charles Davidson and I think I'll address the question to you, Judy and let you send it in the direction that you think is appropriate. I'm a little reluctant to ask the question because it's a little bit nasty in a way and I wouldn't want it to be interpreted as a loaded question or as an opinion but the question is given what happened in the build-up to the Iraq War how are we to trust Turkey as an ally?

Judy Woodruff: Well let me go back to Ambassador Lošošlu with the question from our Washington audience. Ambassador Lošošlu were you able to hear; essentially he's asking how can the United States trust Turkey in his words given what happened in the lead up to the War in Iraq?

Ambassador Faruk Lošošlu: Yes; I did hear the question and before I answer it let me say hello to our friends in Washington--to Dan Fried, Marc Grossman, and to you Judy, and to members of the audience. The question of course is important, but what happened at that time has nothing to do with the element of trust and confidence in the Turkish/American relationship. What happened was ultimately an exercise in democracy in action; it was a decision taken by a democratically elected Parliament and I think it is important to keep this event in perspective. It was not getting back at the United States; it was not hitting at the United States; it was a very closely debated importantly weighed issue in Turkey. At that time when Turkish public opinion was strongly against a new war in its vicinity, a Turkish public opinion which still remembered the effects of the first Gulf War and a Parliament that was newly elected. And despite all these negative settings the Turkish Government at that time still took the issue to the Parliament and it came close to being approved. I mean it was only on a technical constitutional quorum issue that there weren’t enough votes. So what was at stake was not the element of mutual trust in Turkish/American relations because what happened subsequently proved that the two countries really understood what happened. Shortly after this was in the Turkish Parliament, there was a vote in the House of Representatives deciding to give one billion dollars of a grant to Turkey and this was voted with an overwhelming majority in favor of Turkey. So I think we did not act in a way which really destroyed the element of trust in our relationship. It was I repeat democracy in action by a democratically elected Parliament.

Mithat Bereket: Judy we also want to ask some questions. There are some young people here who want to pose some questions to your guests in Washington, so we have one young gentleman here. Could you please introduce yourself and ask your question to whomever you want--either Dan Fried or Ambassador Marc Grossman.

Student 1: Okay; thank you. My name is Güner; I'm a student at Galatasaray University, Faculty of Law, and I say hello to all the guests in all three studios. Well I will pose my question to Mr. Grossman and especially to Mr. Fried; since he's still active in the diplomacy of the United States, so my question is the United States does not seem to be determined about destroying the existence of PKK terrorists in Iraq but I believe that Turkey is. So will the United States move to destroy the PKK existence or if not if Turkey moves to destroy the PKK in Northern Iraq and if a cross-border operation becomes reality then what will be the possible effects of this operation between on the relations between the United States and Turkey? Thank you.

Ambassador Dan Fried: The PKK is a terrorist organization; it is committing acts of terror against Turks. The United States regards it as a terrorist organization; it has no place in Iraq, it has no place anywhere. We have worked with Turkey for many years against the PKK and I'm proud to say that we are working with the Turkish Government against the PKK today. Now the question for Turkey is what is the best way of assuring the destruction of the PKK and the end of this terrorist threat to Turkey, and one of the ways is to support the development of a stable, secure Iraq in which terrorist groups have no place. The question for Turkey is what sort of tactics will best promote that kind of an Iraq in which the PKK has no place? And it seems to me that Turkey and the Iraqi Government that is now coming into being have a mutual interest in seeing the PKK gone, in seeing Iraq's Kurdish population participating in a national government, in an Iraq which is a federal state--a democratic state and a stable state. So this is the question to Turkey; does cross-border action help or does it hurt? Now certainly Americans understand Turkey's frustration. Turkey faces attacks from the PKK and without getting into intelligence issues I'm very happy to report to you that our cooperation with Turkey against the PKK is increasing. We want it to increase still more against PKK finances in Western Europe, against PKK operations; so this is something that we are working on together.

Judy Woodruff: Another question from Istanbul--Mithat.

Student 2: My name is Ali Seyhan Ušurlu. I am in law school in Galatasaray University and my question is similar to my friend's question. According to recent Turkish Army Movement towards the Turkish/Iraqi borders, the actual President of the Republic of Iraq, Mr. Talabani, has made a declaration in that the Iraqi Government had the promise of Mr. Rumsfeld and Miss Rice to not permit any Turkish military intervention through Northern Iraqi lines. So in terms of US collaboration in PKK affair what does this declaration mean? Thank you.

Mithat Bereket: Maybe anybody who can, you want to answer this question?

Student 2: And I want to ask this question to Mr. Grossman.

Mithat Bereket: Okay.

Ambassador Marc Grossman: Let me say that both Ambassador Fried and I certainly understand the preoccupation of people in Turkey with the PKK. If I could make three points; first I think it's extremely important that we sort of set aside all of these conspiracy theories that you hear. They are not true and the United States as Ambassador Fried said is opposed to the PKK and I can tell you from my experience we're very proud of the fact that I think for many, many years the country that gave Turkey the most help in fighting the PKK was the United States of America. So let's set aside the conspiracy theories; let's recognize that there is a terrorist organization there that needs to be defeated. Second point, I agree with what Ambassador Fried said in his analysis of Turkey's options in going forward in Iraq. I think Turks have to decide for themselves sort of what is going to be most effective in defeating the PKK. Third point, and that is that one of the reasons that I started this program by saying that I think US/Turkish relations, there's more to be done; I put the PKK right on the top of this. I admire the Administration for raising this on the agenda again but I think there's more that could be done, more arrests that could be made, more activity against the PKK in Northern Iraq and I must say I think it would first speak to Turks very legitimate preoccupations and secondly it would do a lot for US/Turkish relations and thirdly I think it would make more positive the way the Turks think about the United States. So I think there is more that we can do and certainly the PKK is one of the main places we could do it.

Judy Woodruff: We have a question from our audience here in Washington. Could you give us your name and tell us to whom you want to direct the question?

Audience Member 2: My name is Ömer Tažpżnar. My question is to Ambassador Fried; given the anti-American mood in Turkey what is it that Washington is exactly expecting from Turkish politicians to defend the relationship? How could in other words Washington strengthen the hands of Turkish politicians who would like to say good things about the Turkish/American partnership?

Ambassador Dan Fried: Well, we certainly support our cooperative agenda with our Turkish Government colleagues. The way you deal with skepticism about the United States and about the Bush Administration is to work together with our friends--to work together with Turkey on a common agenda. And I expect that our Turkish partners will work with us on the agenda that we're mapping out now. When Secretary Rice and Foreign Minister Gül spoke together in Ankara, they announced that the Turkish and American Governments were going to put together a sort of a vision statement mapping out our common agenda for the 21st century. When my friend Marc Grossman talked about the need to do more in the Turkish/American relationship I--well one, I agree with him, and two, we're planning to do more based on this vision statement. We need to deepen our cooperation and we need to explain to our publics what we're doing and why we're doing it. And all I expect is that our Turkish partners will work with us and I'm very satisfied with where we are now based on my last trip to Turkey.

Judy Woodruff: Ambassador Grossman, a quick addition to it?

Ambassador Marc Grossman: Thank you very much and thank you very much for the question. First of all I think this vision statement is an important thing and I hope that it focuses on Iran, it focuses on Iraq, and also focuses on the continued effort that the United States needs to make to help Turkey meet its commitment to the European Union. And the other thing I just wanted to say--I hope also in this statement like Ambassador Apakan said that there's a heavy dose of economic relations, cultural relations, and people to people relations because they I think form the foundation of a future US/Turkish relationship.

Judy Woodruff: All right, Mithat; back to you.

Mithat Bereket: Yes; the young gentleman here who wants to ask a question; yes, please go ahead.

Student 3: Hello; I'm Alper Yašcż from Bošaziēi University and I want to address my question in particular to Dan Fried since he is still serving within the US Administration. This is regarding the US/Iranian conflict. When the head of Iranian National Security Council, Ali Larijani, suggested that Turkey could play the part of a mediator in the conflict Turkish authorities replied by saying that this would be possible if both parties demanded such a role from Turkey. So does this indirect rejection of that suggestion imply that the US side is lukewarm in expecting such a role from Turkey and is that they’re expecting full support for the US calls against Iran? And if that the case; is it a feasible strategy still after what happens about the Iraqi War?

Ambassador Dan Fried: We certainly welcome Turkish advice and Turkish counsel on our common problem with Iran and it's not simply that we're looking for unqualified Turkish support. We're looking for our Turkish friends to help us and to help the world deal with this--the problem of Iran's nuclear weapons ambitions. This is the heart of the problem. Iran knows what it has to do; it doesn't lack for ways to communicate its good intentions if it has any. I think that the Turkish message to the Iranians was exactly right; it was a message of international solidarity, a message that Iran should listen to the international community. Now in your question was a sort of sub-text of concern that the United States was looking at a military solution to the Iranian problem and let me hit that head on. We are not looking at a military solution; we are looking for a diplomatic solution and a diplomatic solution is far more achievable if the world is united as it has been. We are working with our European friends, we are working with Turkey; we want to work with Russia and China and develop a united front to demonstrate to Iran that it needs to forego its nuclear weapons ambitions and work with the international community. So I want to make clear Iran is not Iraq and it is our hope that a diplomatic solution can be found and we welcome Turkey's help in this regard.

Judy Woodruff: I want to bring back Ambassador Lošošlu into the discussion of Iran. Mr. Ambassador, just recently Iran's top negotiator visited Ankara. What could your country do right now to help diffuse some of the tension that has clearly arisen over Iran's nuclear program?

Ambassador Faruk Lošošlu: I think to continue to do what we have been doing so far and that is to keep in close touch with our allies and partners particularly Washington and Europe on this issue and retain the sense of solidarity on this issue and communicating the demands of the international community to the Iranian side with clarity. At the same time as a neighbor of Iran we have the duty to provide to them the right counsel and the right messages without necessarily trying to intermediate anything for anyone, but to talk straight to them about what's at stake and that is what we have been doing, urging Iran to cooperate fully with the requirements and expectations of the international community particularly in terms of its commitment under the NPT Treaty and this is what I think we have been doing in terms of the high-level visits to Turkey when our Prime Minister met the Iranian President in Baku, Azerbaijan recently to make sure that the international community stays together on this issue and to make sure that Iran hears the messages of the international community clearly and without interruption.

Mithat Bereket: And Judy to you and a follow-up on Iran, we have another question coming from here to Washington.

Student 4: Thank you; my name is Serkan Özdemir. I am coming from Bošaziēi University from the Department of Political Science and International Relations. I would like to address my question to Dan Fried. As you know Iran is a country that has signed the Non-proliferation Treaty and they have announced many times that they aim at developing nuclear technology for peaceful purposes. However India, Israel and Pakistan are the ones who have not signed the treaty. So the US has no inconvenience about this--these nuclear developments in these countries. So it sounds to me that US has a selective engagement to the issue--to the nuclear issue. How do you explain the US different approaches on the issue of nuclear armaments? I think it creates a paradoxical issue. Thank you.

Ambassador Dan Fried: Frankly part of our problem with Iran is that Iran lied to the IAEA and lied to the world about its nuclear program for many years. So it's not that we question Iran's rights to peaceful nuclear technology; it's that the world doesn't trust Iran to exercise those rights responsibly and our lack of trust is I'm sorry to say well founded and grounded in Iran's bad behavior. Listen to what President Ahmadinejad says; listen to what he said at the UN, listen to what he says about Israel and about the world. He does not inspire confidence. His vision of the world is one which is actually quite frightening. So yes; it is partly the nature of that Government that generates this lack of confidence. Iran knows what it has to do; the Europeans, the so-called EU3, France, Britain, Germany--made a very generous positive offer to Iran; Iran rejected it. Iran walked out of the talks. Iran is now resuming its search for nuclear weapons technologies and it's got to stop. The world needs to send these signals to Iran.

Judy Woodruff: Comment Ambassador Grossman and then quickly to the audience.

Ambassador Marc Grossman: Well just to say that I think we need to bring this back to the question of the US/Turkish relations as well. And that is that I hope the Turks who are clearly preoccupied with this question of Iran will consider its impact on US/Turkish relations and that although there is anti-Americanism in Turkey, although there is questioning about the United States and Turkey I think the fact that the Iranians are clearly pursuing nuclear options should allow Turks to think clearly about the positives of the relationship with the United States and as Ambassador Apakan said with NATO. So this is a strategic question for Turkey--not just a matter of neighborliness but also a question of the relationship with the United States.

Judy Woodruff: A question from our audience here in Washington for one of our Turkish guests.

Audience Member 3: Yes; my name is Jonathon Snow and I would like to ask the Turkish panelists--given Turkey's history of strong anti-terrorism operations and the threats faced by groups such as the PKK and Al Qaeda why is the current Turkish Government so quick to embrace the Hamas Government which is viewed as a terrorist organization not only by your allies in the US and Israel but also by the Europeans?

Judy Woodruff: Let's direct that to Ambassador Apakan first.

Ambassador Ertušrul Apakan: I think Hamas on its own took the initiative for coming to Ankara and you know we conveyed to them our ideas and thinking about the Middle East peace process and I think our views with the United States and the international community on this point are corresponding and they're common and we want Hamas to recognize the right of Israel to exist. And secondly to stop the violence and thirdly to meet the requirements of the international instruments which have been concluded in the past and there's I think a strong expectation that they will continue with the discussions and with the expectations of Quartet. Thank you.

Mithat Bereket: And Judy if you can--if you permit me I'd like to ask the same question to Ambassador Lošošlu who is in Ankara. Ambassador Lošošlu how do you consider this Hamas visit to Ankara? Was it a fruitful one?

Ambassador Faruk Lošošlu: [Laughs] I was so happy that it was Ambassador Apakan who answered the question initially. This is a difficult issue and I think it's reflected in the fact that there is a very intense debate about it--not just in Washington or elsewhere but in Turkey itself and there are very different opposing points of view as to whether the visits should have taken place or not, and now of course it's a fact of our recent history. We must look into the future; we must work as Turkey and as the United States and as two partners to make sure that the Palestinian people do not suffer because of Hamas. The elections as former Secretary Albright said it wasn't the elections that created Hamas in Palestine; it was there before the elections and we must not allow the Palestinian people to suffer as a result. We must also not lose sight of the fact that we still have to work very hard--very hard with or without Hamas for a peaceful resolution of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

Mithat Bereket: Thank you very much Mr. Ambassador Lošošlu. Do we have another question from here to Washington I suppose? Yes, please.

Student 5: Hello; my name is Özgür Bozcar from Bošaziēi University and my question will be on the Iranian issue and I want to address my question to both Mr. Grossman and Mr. Fried. Now days as we all know we are hearing that there is a possibility of an attack on Iran because of its nuclear program, and US is definitely demanding a support from Turkey. Given Turkey's stance towards Iran in the previous years as a neutral country and given Turkey's shared interest with Iran on energy and Kurdish issues do you suppose Turkey's support is reliable in the attack or in relations with Iran?

Judy Woodruff: We've already addressed this question.

Student 5: Thank you.

Judy Woodruff: To some extent--but perhaps a brief response--additional.

Ambassador Dan Fried: Let me repeat what I said earlier; the issue of a military attack on Iran is a bad question. That's not what's on the table; that's not what we're thinking about. We haven't asked Turkey for support; we haven't thought about this issue; we are focused on a diplomatic solution and we think we do have Turkey's support. So we should not be distracted by the issue of military action. That's a fake issue at the moment and a debate about that issue is harmful because it will detract from our goal which is to resolve this diplomatically by bringing together the United States, Europe, Russia, China and--and frankly Turkey.

Judy Woodruff: Mithat?

Mithat Bereket: Yeah; we have--thank you very much Dan Fried. We have another question from a young lady on another topic. I think we've been talking about the stereotypes or the images on both sides and this question is related to that. Yes, please?

Student 6: Thank you; this is Leyla Orak from Galatasaray University Law School and this will obviously be a question speaking on general terms but still--. Concerning that the challenge for the Turkish/American relations and problems and conflicts in Iraq remain. And a similar problem about Iran is approaching; what should both sides do to improve relations--not only on political level but also in a way of eliminating the prejudices both nations have for each other?

Ambassador Marc Grossman: Well first of all thank you very much because that's a very good question. I would say a couple of things. First is that I think it's very important that both Governments commit themselves to paying attention to this relationship every day. The US/Turkish relationship is a good one but in some ways it's not a natural one. And--and it needs to be paid attention to and when I get worried is when people don't pay attention to it for five months, six months, and then they come back and they look and they say oh my goodness, all of these terrible things have happened. So I think as Ambassador Fried has said, as Dr. Rice has traveled--we've got to pay attention and that's very important on the Turkish side as well. We need people in Turkey at senior levels to speak out for the US/Turkish relationship.

Judy Woodruff: Do you think that's not happening right now?

Ambassador Marc Grossman: I don't think it happens enough actually Judy, and I would put on my list of the things again about what more we could do to have more clarity on the Turkish side about the importance of the relationship of the United States to Turks and to Turkey and to the future. The second thing I would say and that is you know I hope that there will be an increasing amount of self-confidence in Turkey. I mean the previous question was all phrased in you know what are we demanding of Turkey and I think for Turks to always put themselves in a position of being--what is being demanded of us, what do we have to do I think is a real lack of self-confidence and so the second thing that I would say is that as Turkey is more democratic, is more tolerant, is more pluralistic, I think you can also be more self-confident in this relationship with the United States and that would be a very important thing. Third, stereotypes--the most important way to get rid of stereotypes is more cultural exchange, more student exchange, and more business back and forth.

Judy Woodruff: A question from the audience here in Washington.

Audience Member 4: Yes; my name is Oubai Shahbandar, a student at Georgetown University and this question is for the Turkish panel. Do recent high-level meetings with Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad and his regime reflect a growing Turkish foreign policy trend to embrace regimes that are perceived as anti-Western and with a troubling human rights record?

Judy Woodruff: Ambassador Lošošlu we're going to put this one to you. It does pick up on the theme we were just discussing with Hamas.

Ambassador Faruk Lošošlu: The mending of our relations with Syria started before the current Government came into power. We have had a lot of problems with Syria over the years, particularly over the question of the PKK presence in Syria, but that's now behind us and in recent years we have seen a very significant improvement in our relations with Syria. Now Turkey has a policy of resolving its problems with all its neighbors; as Dan Fried said a few minutes ago, we are in a very difficult neighborhood; we don't have easy neighbors and it is important to keep the trend of improved relations with Syria not just for the sake of the Turkish/Syrian relationship but also enabling and increasing the capacity of Syria to become a country that's better integrated, that's more outward looking to the rest of the world because they're only opening to the West is literally from Turkey. And yes, there are problems in Syria. Yes, there are all sorts of difficulties that the Syrian leadership is facing; but we believe that the kind of engagement Turkey offers to Syria helps Syria to open up to become a more transparent society and hopefully to become an even more responsible member of the international community in general.

Mithat Bereket: Thanks Mr. Lošošlu--Ambassador Lošošlu. We have another question from our audience here. Yes, please?

Student 7: Hello; my name is Ilker Hepgüner and I'm a student in Galatasaray University My question will be about the Western part of Turkey because they have been talking about all the Eastern--things about--we also have an Aegean and especially a Cyprus issue and the USA has always been very involved in the Cyprus issue and Aegean issue around Turkey and Greece is sometimes came on the opposite directions and especially after the rejection of--the Greek rejection of the Annan Plan in 2004 and the enjoinment of the Greek Cyprus to the EU, Turkey--Turks are kind of alone in the international community and especially about the restrictions to the Northern Cyprus; which position does the USA take about this issue and also what would the reaction of the United States be about the prospective or a possible application of the Greek Cyprus to NATO because Turkey especially about after the negotiation has started is kind of needing aid, needing support from the international community on this issue. Thank you.

Mithat Bereket: Yes; and we'd like to put this question to Ambassador Dan Fried, please.

Ambassador Dan Fried: We support reunification of Cyprus as a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation and we very much support the position of the Turkish Cypriot community which is pro-unification. We think that community has behaved well; we think it's-shown a very long--a very serious long-sided view of the problem and we appreciate what Ali Talat and his people have done. We regret that the Greek Cypriot community rejected the Annan plan; we want to do whatever we can to move back toward a settlement and we also want to reach out to the Turkish Cypriot community in ways which will promote reunification of the island not separatism but the questioner is quite right that the Turkish Cypriots do feel alone in the world and they shouldn't feel alone. They should feel that the world recognizes the courageous position they took in favor of the unification and that we support their support of unification. As for Cyprus in NATO well that issue is--let us say extremely hypothetical; no Cypriot official has ever raised this with me and I actually don't expect them to.

Mithat Bereket: And may I also pose the same sort of question to Ambassador Marc Grossman? I mean how do you think the US could help Turkey and the Turkish Republic known as Cyprus in this issue because everybody here seems to be the way--deserted, everybody seems to be the way of sort of behaved unfairly.

Ambassador Marc Grossman: Well first of all I think that it's very important that the United States continue to have these links with the Turkish Cypriots. I think the idea that we can have more contact, have more business is very important. I think we shouldn't dilute ourselves though; I don't think there is going to be an American government recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. I think the things that the Administration will do will be somewhere less than that but I hope that there is more that can be done. Second point is that I certainly hope that the European Union will meet its obligations; there's money that was promised that needs to flow. I do hope as the questioner said that someday people can find a way to lift the trade embargo. I do think it's important though to recognize that 75-percent of the people on the Greek side of the island voted against the Annan plan and one of the jobs will have to be both for the European Union and the United States and the United Nations to sort of reframe those questions so that if it ever comes back and I hope it will come back soon--people who are now European Union members as Cypriots they will feel more comfortable with a bi-zonal, bi-communal federated Cyprus. One other point if I could and that was I thought your question also made a very important point about the Aegean and here is also a place where I think the United States can continue to press forward and see that Greece and Turkey try to solve all of their problems. These problems should be solved quickly; they're two NATO members about to be European Union members I hope some day and so we shouldn't forget that part of the question either.

Judy Woodruff: I want to turn back to one of our Washington guests, Ambassador Marc Grossman. You have a question for one of our Turkish panelists.

Ambassador Marc Grossman: Yes, Judy; thank you very much. As both Ambassador Lošošlu and Ambassador Apakan know I've spent a long time working for Turkey's entry--full membership into the European Union and I was just interested if Ambassador Lošošlu felt that the desire for membership in the European Union among the Turkish public is as strong today as it was say a year ago or before October the 3rd of last year?

Ambassador Faruk Lošošlu: I think public opinion surveys indicate that support for membership in the EU by the Turkish public is still quite strong. It's not as strong as it was a year ago or two years ago but this has to be understood in the context of the current stage in our relationship with the European Union where Turkey made great strides for reform some months ago and after the decision of the European Union to open negotiations with Turkey at the end of last year that has been at least a pause, a slowing down of EU related activities. But I think the commitment of the Government and the support of the Turkish public for EU membership remains strong; there is no alternative to it. Our membership in the European Union is going to make Turkey a better partner for the US as well and it's going to strengthen the Transatlantic community more generally and I think it is going to also send the right messages to the rest of the world showing that a country which is predominantly Muslim but democratic and secular can make it into the European Union. So the support remains I think strong despite perhaps quantitatively speaking a small drop in the level of the support. If I may ask a question in return?

Mithat Bereket: Yes, please; go ahead.

Ambassador Faruk Lošošlu: To our American panel?

Mithat Bereket: Go ahead, Mr. Lošošlu; yes, please.

Ambassador Faruk Lošošlu: Yes; yes, you know traditionally Turkish/American relations have rested on security issues, on political issues, but I sense a shift in a new area of importance that are probably going to play a very significant role in Turkish/American relations in the coming years and this is the area of energy supplies. Turkey is fast turning into a major transit and terminal point for the transport of Caspian, Central Asian, and eventually Middle Eastern oil and gas to the rest of the world and this is already being debated as an issue between Turkey and the US, between Turkey and Russia, and in the context of the triangle of metrics; do my American colleagues agree that energy is going to be a significant area of concern to our two countries? And do they think this will also be an area of important cooperation between our two countries?

Judy Woodruff: Secretary Fried?

Ambassador Dan Fried: Yes and yes; energy is already an area where our two Governments are cooperating very closely and it's--it's going to be an area of strategic concern and shared strategic concern and I suspect shared action in the future. We had a major success with the construction of the Baku-Ceyhan oil pipeline. Right now and quite frankly largely as a result of some of the problems we've seen of--with gas and the Russian pressure on some of its neighbors with respect to gas, this issue is now assuming huge dimensions capturing enormous attention in Europe. Turkey is a natural country for transit, for Caspian gas, Central Asian gas, Azerbaijani gas, and I suspect that international firms will be working very closely with their Turkish counterparts and that our diplomatic and economic cooperation will grow in this area.

Judy Woodruff: Secretary Fried, you have a question for one of our Turkish guests?

Ambassador Dan Fried: Well, my question is if there was one thing that the United States could do to help the Turkish Government address the issue of skepticism in the Turkish population about my country what would that one thing be? And you can also feel free to say that you'll send that answer to me privately.

Ambassador Ertušrul Apakan: You know I should first say that I shared the views expressed by Ambassador Dan Fried on our common mission. I think we have a positive agenda and a common agenda; we are working closely with our American partners and Turkish/American relationships and cooperation has a future and this is a positive agenda and we have to explore new areas. When I say new areas from security to political cooperation--to move to neutral, more trite--more investment, more cooperation on energy and also more cooperation on technological issues. In that context I think in my country--US has a positive image. There could be differences of opinion and perceptions but they're not central to our relationship. And our two nations have bonds of friendship, time-tested allies, and a positive thinking for the future. I think this is the main pillar of our relationship and our young people they have their own bonds in universities, in cultural exchanges; I practically give utmost importance to the exchange of students, academia admissions and more contacts between the universities. I'm repeating myself but this is an important part of our cooperation and important dimension. In that context I believe that some misunderstandings and some misperceptions will be removed by mutual efforts and the image of Turkish/American friendship will always be a positive input to our cooperation. Thank you.

Mithat Bereket: Okay; can I also ask the same question to Ambassador Lošošlu? I mean what is the one thing be--that you would like to ask from the American country's counterparts?

Ambassador Faruk Lošošlu: You know Dan is such a good friend; he asks such wonderful questions. The answer of course will have to be more delivery on the PKK issue, and the way I would put it is all the US must really do is to match its great extremely helpful past performance with similar actions from this point on. Now this is not to deny the fact that the US is already working with Turkey against the PKK. We are also talking to the Iraqis about this issue and I'm confident that cooperation on this issue will produce results soon but this is the one issue that is of the utmost concern to the Turkish public--the PKK terrorism issue and whatever the US can do which is visible, which is concrete, which is touchable by the Turkish public will help a great deal in turning Turkish public opinion in favor of the United States. I agree by the way with Ambassador Apakan that public opinion in Turkey is opposed to particular US policies especially in Iraq. But this is a US friendly, America friendly country and I want to conclude my comment by emphasizing that point.

Ambassador Ertušrul Apakan: While we are winding up our discussion I have to say that PKK is a sensitive question. This is important to our public; this is a security question and I fully share what has been said by Ambassador Lošošlu on this point. Thank you.

Mithat Bereket: Thank you very much to both Ambassadors. So Judy you see these are the wrap-ups therefore, the wishes of the Turkish Diplomats--back to you.

Judy Woodruff: And I'm going to pose that final point to our guests here in Washington. To you first Ambassador Grossman; we heard the Ambassador say the PKK, they'd like to see something--the Turks would like to see something concrete and visible that the United States can do to address this problem they see pointed as a threat to Turkey.

Ambassador Marc Grossman: I think that's absolutely right and there are--I think there are a number of things that can be done with Europeans in Northern Iraq, in Turkey that could meet all of the criteria that Ambassador Lošošlu laid out. And we ought to be doing these things, and as I said previously it would be top of my list on the things that we can do more in the US/Turkish relationship because I think it would do wonders to change the perception of the United States of America in Turkey.

Judy Woodruff: And finally Secretary Dan Fried; what concrete can the US do? Ambassador Grossman is saying there are things that could be done; what are they?

Ambassador Dan Fried: Well I'll accept the advice of my Turkish friends and Ambassador Lošošlu with whom I worked for years in Washington. There are things that we're doing now; there are more things that we hope to do in the future and it's the nature of such operations that the last thing you want to do is advertise it to a terrorist enemy in advance. But I'll accept--I'll accept that advice and I can say that we are going to be working with our Turkish colleagues on a common agenda and with the new Iraqi Government to see to it that this threat to Turkey is eliminated.

Judy Woodruff: Assistant Secretary Dan Fried, we thank you here in Washington. Ambassador Marc Grossman, thank you both; with that Mithat, we want to say very--many thanks to you and to the entire crew at CNN Turk. We want to thank you for the dialogue; we want to thank you for conducting this in the English language. We understand that you know that we- wish that we in America were--were all of us able to speak Turkish so that sometimes we could conduct these--these dialogues in your language as well. I do want to say thanks to all and thanks again to the Smith Richardson Foundation, to the German Marshall Fund, which supports civil society in Turkey and Turkish participation in the transatlantic community. I'm Judy Woodruff for America Abroad Media. On behalf of Mithat Bereket in Istanbul that's it from Washington.

Mithat Bereket: Thank you very much Judy; again--really--I really would like to thank you and to all the technical team that's made this possible because it was a difficult task and I would like to meet you sometime not through the satellites but face-to-face hopefully--not live through the satellite but face-to-face in reality. I would like to thank our guests here, Senior Foreign Minister of Issues of Turkey, Ambassador Ertušrul Apakan and Ambassador Faruk Lošošlu and thank you for being with us. And this is--well as you said--concludes this special program; thank you very much from everybody. Thanks a lot.

[Applause]