U.S.-European Issues

Assistant Secretary Fried: I came to Belgium from Tbilisi and I went out to Tbilisi in the context of the Russia-Georgia tensions that are continuing. Here I’ve met with NATO, I’m meeting with the EU, and I just finished a meeting with the Belgian Foreign Minister who is, of course, also the OSCE Chairman in Office.

In addition to obviously talking to my European colleagues, EU and NATO, about Georgia and Georgia-Russian issues, we were also obviously discussing issues related to the NATO Summit coming up in a month in Riga and the usual astonishingly broad array of U.S.-European issues, where we and the Europeans, the Americans and Europeans, are working together on a host of global problems. There is almost no major global problem on which the U.S. and Europe are not: a) working together; and b) working together as partners, which is both extremely welcomed and absolutely critical.

The United States cannot succeed in the world without Europe. The United States and Europe are partners bound by common values and common responsibilities in the world.

Let me say something about Georgia and Russia. We are obviously deeply concerned by the ongoing tensions between the two countries. We support Georgia’s democratic and economic reforms. We support Georgia’s territorial integrity within its internationally recognized boundaries. And we support, frankly, Georgia’s aspirations to draw ever closer to Europe and Euro-Atlantic institutions. There is no question about that. We are working with our European friends, with the UN and with the OSCE to help resolve the frozen conflicts.

All of these issues are gravely complicated by the current tensions between Georgia and Russia, and we regret these very much. In particular, the Russian sanctions against Georgia, the embargo on wine, water, most products; the closing of the border; the severing of air links; and most disturbing is the, on a kind of gut emotional level, is the harassment of ethnic Georgians, people being harassed it seems principally because of their nationality in Russia today. Deportations, in which one person has died, are deeply troubling. We think that it does not serve anyone’s interest nor is it consistent with the values that prevail throughout this continent, so it is disturbing.

But we also believe that Georgia and Russia are neighbors. They need to find ways to live together, to work together, to cooperate. Tensions do no one any good and we have, I will certainly share, urged the Georgians to do everything they can to work with Russia and that was also one of my messages.

I’m delighted to be here in the capital of institutional Europe. The range of issues is enormous, whether it’s the Middle East or Afghanistan, where NATO troops are doing their part, or Lebanon. The range of U.S.-European issues is truly global, as it should be. With that, thank you, and I’ll be happy to take questions.

Question: Because you’re coming from the Caucasus, another problem in the Caucasus is the relationship with Armenia and Turkey and Armenia and Azerbaijan. What is your position on the French National Assembly on the criminalizing of denial of the so-called genocide? Do you think it’s the right way to sort out what you called a frozen conflict? Or do you think it’s yet another obstacle for the possible Turkish membership?

Assistant Secretary Fried: Turkish-Armenian relations are complicated. I believe President Chirac has expressed his concern about this legislation. I believe that’s correct. I certainly share the view that this legislation criminalizing discussion doesn’t seem to make any sense.

Let me be clear. The United States has spoken out repeatedly about the terrible events, the killings, the mass killings, of Armenians during the late Ottoman period. We have said so. President Bush has said so, and said so repeatedly. We don’t minimize these events. We don’t deny these events. We, as a government, have never termed these events genocide. We don’t use that word. We have certainly encouraged Turks and Armenians to look at this issue honestly and painfully. Every nation that I know of, including my own, has things in its past of which it’s not proud. In the United States, certainly slavery constitutes one of those. Our treatment of American Indians is another one. A third might be the internment of American citizens in camps during World War II because they were Japanese. These are things my country is not proud of, but they are things which my country has dealt with in an honest way, which is what free societies do. We have encouraged Turkey to do the same. And Turkish voices are speaking up and urging Turkey to look at its own history.

Now that’s painful. It is painful, but it doesn’t strike me as clear that resolutions like this in the French Parliament are going to encourage this process.

We support Turkish-Armenian dialogue on these questions. Not polemics, but real dialogue. I think that Turkey itself is thinking more and more deeply about these questions, as it should, and I think that the job of outsiders is to encourage Turkey to do so and encourage Turkish-Armenian dialogue. Not to take positions which make that dialogue harder. I hope that’s a clear enough statement.

It’s a complicated issue, and we’ve thought about it. That’s a long answer, but the question forces me to do that.

Question: If I may, I have two questions. The first one, Euro parliamentarian, Mr. Fava [Italian MEP Claudio Fava] from the Parliamentarian Committee on the CIA flights came in Romania and said he is astonished after President Bush’s statement on CIA flights the Romanian authorities didn’t ask for more precisions or details from the American administration. What do you have as comment? This was the first question.

The second one: what’s your comment on the referendum for independence in Tiraspol? And the new situation created by this referendum and by the fact that in Romania the Hungarians are asking now for a new referendum, a national referendum on the possibility of the independence of a territory from Romania populated by Hungarians. It’s called Szeklerpol, the state of the Szeklers. Thank you, sir.

Assistant Secretary Fried: First of all, Romania has every reason to be proud of what it has done to contribute to common efforts against terrorism. Romania has done and is doing good things, and Romania should not be under any kind of pressure whatsoever.

Secondly, the referendum in Tiraspol changes nothing. It is an undemocratic regime. The referendum has no validity. The OSCE, Europe, no one has recognized the referendum. We support the territorial integrity of Moldova. We support a negotiated solution to this problem. Chairman in Office De Gucht and I were just discussing some of these issues. We do not support ethnic separatism. People can claim referenda where they want, whether it’s the Hungarian minority or some parts of the Hungarian minority in Romania or whether it’s minorities in other countries. Territorial integrity is a principle that needs to be respected.

I know something of Hungarian-Romanian relations because during the 1990s this was an issue with respect to Romania’s accession to NATO. The fact is the conditions for Romania’s Hungarian minority have improved. That doesn’t mean absolutely everything has been done, but Romania is a democracy. Hungarians participate in coalitions. There are cultural rights which are recognized. Romania has its problems, but it is a democratic country.

Obviously, the situation in Kosovo is being abused by opportunists and separatists and would-be separatists. The situation in Kosovo – and Kosovo is not a precedent for any other situation in the world – full stop – is not precedent.

Slobodan Milosevic engaged in ethnic cleansing and then he got into a war with NATO. He lost. The UN by unanimous decision has been administering Kosovo ever since. The UN has decided that Kosovo’s final status is up for decision. That’s what 1244 [UN Security Council Resolution 1244] says. That situation does not pertain anywhere else in the world, and it should not be used as an excuse by separatists. Especially in democratic countries like Romania.

If the Hungarian community, or part of the community, wants to lobby for more rights, that's perfectly legitimate. It’s perfectly legitimate to fight politically and battle this out. That’s what politics is about. We’re in a country, Belgium, where politics is complicated, and you have to this day issues of street signs and language – perfectly normal. Perfectly normal. A little funny for us Americans; we have a different tradition. But it’s perfectly normal in Europe. But referenda on separatism have no validity, and I would not worry about it.

Question: On Georgia. Did you say to the Georgians, given that conflict is possible, did you say to the Georgians that if things go wrong, you must understand that the U.S. is not going to be there?

Assistant Secretary Fried: What I said was: there is no military solution to any of these conflicts. Military options make no sense under any circumstances. They’re a terrible thing. And the Georgians repeatedly assured me that they look at military options with horror, as catastrophes to be avoided.

There have been incidents in South Ossetia which have disturbed a lot of us. I made it clear that for Georgia’s part not all of those incidents were instigated by the Georgians. The South Ossetians have engaged in some dangerous and provocative behavior. Trying to shoot down a Georgian government helicopter. But I said to the Georgians, and I have said before, that they must do everything they can to promote peaceful solutions.

Now the situation sometimes – and this is for those of you who don’t follow Georgian issues, it does sound obscure; even for those of us who do follow it – it is complex. The Georgians, in the summer sent police forces into a part of Abkhazia, but not a part of Abkhazia controlled by the Abkhaz separatist authorities, the so-called Kodori Valley, which was basically a lawless no-man’s land. They did so; they have restored some order there. The Abkhaz were worried that it was a prelude to military action against them, but the Georgians assured them it was not, that they were merely restoring order in an ungoverned area. And ungoverned areas quickly become havens for very bad people. So in this case, we did not, and we have said, we have never condemned in principle what the Georgians did. However, any violations of ceasefire arrangements that they may have committed in the course of that operation, we do criticize. I hope that’s clear. It is a complicated issue.

But the short answer to your question is the Georgians know perfectly well our view that military options are bad options and to be avoided and we do not support military options. Period. OK?

Question: Can you go back to the issue of CIA flights? Firstly, I wanted to ask you whether you can say in general how much this issue has weighed upon EU-U.S. relations. You talked earlier of shared values and the EU in a statement has cited the shared values to ask the U.S. to respect values of human rights and so on. Has this issue complicated –

Assistant Secretary Fried: Well, I would say –

Question: And I have, sorry, just another question on Kosovo. What is the U.S. position regarding the possibility that the final status may be postponed to avoid any concomitance with the Serbian elections?

Assistant Secretary Fried: With respect to the secret flights, it has become an issue partly because of wildly exaggerated and factually ungrounded assertions. If you read the European press, it seemed there was no assertion, no claim, no charge so outlandish that it wasn’t instantly believed. One would think there were thousands of flights everywhere. It became a kind of echo chamber of self-referenced reporting, which has created a very strange atmosphere.

I think that exaggerated, wildly exaggerated, reporting is just bad reporting.

There are complicated legal issues at stake as we struggle against terrorism. A struggle against transnational terrorists is complicated because it doesn’t fit neatly into the legal frameworks which were designed, and to which we adhere, for wars and conflicts between states. Terrorist groups are stateless, but they are also dangerous. We are developing and working out the legal principles and the legal norms and the legal practices. We’re doing so under public gaze. It’s hardly a secret, so that we can conduct this in a way that raises fewer questions and fewer concerns and is well understood.

My point is that the nature of the struggle is itself complicated and the legal issues are complicated and shouldn’t be reduced, can’t be reduced, to simple sound bites but need to be worked through. We’re doing so with our European colleagues.

The State Department’s Legal Advisor, John Bellinger, has traveled to Europe many times, repeatedly over the past year, discussing these issues with his European colleagues and gaining, I think, greater appreciation that indeed the United States is committed to the rule of law, both in principle in general and, specifically with respect to the fight against terrorism, and to say this requires us to look at – and I say this as a non-lawyer, so I have to be careful. It requires us to consider how the struggle against terrorism in its current 21^st century form fits within the existing legal frameworks and how we all look at the legal frameworks to see to it that our principles, our rights, the rule of law, and security are all maintained. Easier to say than to do.

To go on to Kosovo –

Question: Can I ask for clarification on the widely exaggerated claims that you mentioned. You just refer to the press or also to the work of the European Parliament?

Assistant Secretary Fried: I will just say wildly exaggerated claims where there would be a claim made and sort of repeated as if fact when it had no basis. But I’m not pointing fingers against any particular institution. I’m just trying to put this into context.

With respect to Kosovo, former President Ahtisaari has been leading this process. He is supported by the Contact Group, including Germany, Italy, France, Great Britain, the United States and Russia. We’re working closely with the European Union and, of course, NATO, which has troops on the ground in Kosovo on a very successful mission.

We have said, and the Contact Group has agreed, that we will make every effort to resolve this in 2006. President Ahtisaari seems on track to do so.

You asked a very legitimate, but a hypothetical, question. That is: what would we do if the Serb elections were held? Well, I want to first see when the Serb elections – we’ll see. We don’t know when the Serb elections will be held, so we’ll see what the Serbs decide and then consider it. Obviously we’re aware of the Serb electoral calendar.

But the fact is: on Kosovo, we can’t go back and we can’t stay where we are. We have to go ahead, and we have to go ahead in a way which recognizes the rights of both the overwhelming majority, the 90 percent of the Kosovar people who are ethnic Albanians, but also recognizes the legitimate rights of the Kosovar Serbs and other minorities, the monasteries, the historic Serb presence in Kosovo, the communities that are there themselves and need security, need guarantees for their future. All of these things need to be worked out.

When I was in Kosovo a couple of weeks ago, I met with the Kosovo Serb and other Kosovo minority communities, including there’s a large Turkish community in Prizren. They also want to move ahead. They want to move ahead. No one wants to stay where they are. They don’t like this limbo. Even the Kosovo Serbs don’t like the limbo that they’re in. They can’t get anything done. We can’t keep them in this uncertain status forever. So we do have to move ahead.

Question: As you know, the European leaders will meet Mr. Putin tonight in Finland. What do you think they should say to him? What kind of message should they send?

Assistant Secretary Fried: Certainly all of us want to work with Russia. We want to deepen our cooperation wherever we can. There are issues that have caused us some concern, and, in this respect, I recall the recent European Union statement about Georgia and its concern. And that was a good statement. I think the dialogue with Russia needs to be honest and open and deal also with the concerns that many people have. A strong, modern Russia is a Russia which ought to be able to get along with its neighbors. Russia is a very large, strong, wealthy country. Georgia is a very small country. It is in no one’s interest to see these tensions continue.

Question: Aren’t you concerned about what’s going on in Russia, like the freedom of the press, all these developments?

Assistant Secretary Fried: My government expressed its concerns about the murder of the renowned journalist Anna Politkovskaya. That was a shock. It was dismaying. It was a murder which raised a lot of very disturbing questions. Thirteen journalists have been murdered in Russia over the past few years. Of course it’s disturbing. Of course, it’s disturbing. She was a symbol of some of the best people in Russia today – fearless, honest, dedicated to the pursuit of truth. And, as the American Ambassador attended her funeral and spoke and was more eloquent than I can be, he said: "For the sake of Russia, her murderer should be brought to justice." That was good, strong language and I can tell you that no committee in Washington drafted it for him. It was spoken from the heart and well spoken.

Question: About NATO’s global role, I don’t know how it is envisioned, as well as the EU’s claim to be a player in the whole world. Do you see any ideas for interfacing these two institutions? Interface between the EU and NATO in terms of these global roles? Would you like to discuss this global partnership, if you have any ….

Assistant Secretary Fried: That’s an important question. I certainly support close cooperation. The United States supports close cooperation between NATO and the EU. There’s work that needs to be done in the world. A strong EU does not mean a weak NATO. A strong NATO does not mean a weak EU. We need both institutions strong and active in the world.

The United States and Europe are two great centers of democracy, prosperity and power. That prosperity and power gives us a responsibility to act together in the world, working, obviously, with other like-minded countries like Japan, like Australia, and others. The nature of global security today requires us to work together.

Global problems can’t be solved strictly through military means. Sometimes military means are necessary, but the military, the civilian, the economic, the political, all have to be linked up. If the problems are linked, then the solutions must be linked and the institutions that can provide these solutions and the resources for these solutions have to be linked, without this terrible theological dance which often slows down action.

The United States favors a strong European Union as a partner. Partners don’t always agree. Partnership is not unanimity. But a strong EU we see as a partner, and a strong NATO and a strong EU can be instruments for good in the world.

Also, by the way, I could say working with Russia. The question of Russia came up. It is true that while Georgia is an issue where we all have some concerns, we are partners with Russia on issues like Iran and North Korea. Russia is also a global partner. It has global interests. It is a global actor and we work with Russia cooperatively. I want to make that point clear. It’s not just the United States and Europe. Russia is a player on North Korea, Iran. We look to them to be a very constructive force.

Question: On Russia, Putin has said only a fool would not see that Kosovo is a precedent for Abkhazia, Ossetia and Transnistria. He has also said several times that, if Kosovo does become independent, we may take that as a precedent. It does look like there is a kind of train wreck coming – and because of the things that you just talked about – where we work with Russia, it also looks as though the ability of Europe, but also of the United States to put any pressure on Russia to avoid that train wreck is very limited. Do you think that’s right?

Assistant Secretary Fried: It’s not a question of pressure on Russia. It’s a question of what is best for the world. What promotes stability.

There is I think a fair presumption that territorial integrity ought to be respected. That ought to be, as it were, a kind of default mode. There’s no question of Romania’s territorial integrity. Or Italy’s, with South Tyrol. Remember, that used to be a critical issue. There’s no question of Turkey’s territorial integrity. These are beyond question.

The Kosovo situation is unique. What is the precedent? When a dictator goes to war with NATO and loses, he has really lost. The Kosovo situation does not apply elsewhere in the world. It doesn’t apply anywhere else in the world. It doesn’t apply to Spain; it doesn’t apply to Quebec. There are lots of separatists in the world. I don’t believe that any responsible leader would argue that because Milosevic engaged in ethnic cleansing and went to war with NATO and lost, that every separatist group therefore has a claim. It does not follow. I think the Russians will come to see that. After all, the territorial integrity of Russia is also beyond question. No one questions that and no one should.

I think it is very fair for Russia and other countries in the Contact Group to look seriously at the arrangements in Kosovo to make sure that these arrangements provide for the Serb community and the welfare of the Serbian community in Kosovo. That’s fair and legitimate. But we have to be careful to do this in a responsible way.

Question: About the Riga Summit. How do you see the NATO enlargement at this stage of the talks?

Assistant Secretary Fried: We don’t foresee that Riga will make any decisions about enlargement, that is, no invitations at Riga. I think that’s pretty fair.

President Bush the other day spoke of our belief that Croatia will be readyfor an invitation in 2008. We do think that Croatia will be ready, especially the way its reforms have been going. The indicted war criminal Gotovina was arrested. That removed really the last obstacle. The Croatians are doing a great job. Albania and Macedonia have been making tremendous progress. I think that NATO enlargement has been a great success. It has been a fabulous success. Look at relations between Romania and Hungary, between Poland and Lithuania. They’re good neighbors. They get along. That’s partly because they are all within the NATO family, and now of course within the European Union. These are really part of the same process, the European Union is a miracle and wonderful thing.

So, enlargement is a good thing. Enlargement should go forward, and it will go forward. Don’t think it will go forward with invitations at Riga, but it will go forward. And we’ll see.

Question: And how far?

Assistant Secretary Fried: Well, the last thing I worry about is that countries are going to become successfully reformed, stable democracies at peace with themselves and their neighbors and will want to come into NATO. I refuse to think of that as anything except good news.

Now that said, how far does NATO enlargement go? You’re dealing with a finite number of countries that have expressed interest in NATO membership. Georgia has, but they obviously have a lot of work to do before they’re ready. Ukraine is trying to make up its mind, and it’s not in our interest to rush them. Let them make up their minds. Ukraine should know that it will be welcomed, as far as my government is concerned, welcomed when it’s ready and when it wants to be. It’s not an invitation, but a statement of that it should feel it has an open future.

One more question?

Question: How concerned are you about the so-called train crash between Turkey and the EU on Cyprus? Were you able to talk to your European colleagues during this visit?

Assistant Secretary Fried: I’m going to meet now with the political, with the PSC. This may come up. I can’t predict whether it will. But we support reunification of Cyprus as a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation. I'm pleased that the Turkish Cypriot leader, Mr. Talat, does as well. That’s very important. Our position on Turkey’s European future is well known. It is notoriously known.

We hope a train wreck is avoided. The Finns are doing a good job. Both the Republic of Cyprus, the Turkish government, no one has said no to the Finnish ideas. These are being discussed. I think it’s important that there be no train wreck. It’s important that Turkey’s reforms continue. My sense is the Turks know perfectly well their accession process to the European Union is going to last for many, many years, so there’s no reason for people to debate this nervously. It is a good opportunity to deepen Turkey’s reforms and its relations with Europe as it goes forward, as I hope it will.

Question: Thank you.